Read this blog post about Orijen and concerning nutrient levels courtesy of Desert Wind Hounds blog. Read the comments too, there is a ton of information there about misconceptions of food allergies and grain free diets. It's important to evaluate WHY a specific dog should start a unique food like this, which is why I'm posting this here. I truely believe a dogs' diet should be based on their individual needs, not breed, and not because it's popular.
I do think Orijen is a well made product and it really, really helped Beebe when I was first dealing with her crazy allergies. It was a great starting point that helped prompt me to feeding raw and learning about the importance of researching what you feed. I fed Orijen to my first two Shibas, and then switched to the lower protein variety Acana when several things started happening.
Firstly, they became horribly gassy, secondly, they became extremely thirsty on this food which is a sign of stress on the kidneys and liver, which I later learned was from the highly concentrated amounts of dried protein in the food. Thirdly, I observed elevated liver and kidney enzymes after starting this food.
So, before feeding this food, please stop and think why the particular dog should have this instead of a more traditional kibble, home cooked, or raw: Is the dog truely allergic or intolerant of grains based on allergy testing and diet trials? Is the dog's kidneys/liver in great working order based on bloodwork? Is the dog out of the puppy stage (very high levels of calcium and phospherous)? If yes to all of these, Orijen is probably a good choice among many equally good choices of diet. I sincerely believe at this point however, that the best grain free diet is total raw, or something well formulated with lower protein like Acana.
We stopped Orijen when Akira started getting black stains on his belly, our vet said it was a problem due to his kidneys. We did not asks for further analysis and just switched to Raw.
ReplyDeleteI think that normal food is just better for dogs, kibble will always be a highly processed and very dry feed. But that's just me ;)
honestly I thought her review was a bit extreme. I'm sure someone can dissect Acana the same way.
ReplyDeleteI guess her warnings and concerns would be valid if someone ONLY gave orijen - no treats, water or anything else - every day for the life of a dog. But then... extreme, isn't it?
From fostering I've learned that dog food is less about what you feed and mroe about how the individual dog tolerates it. For my three and most fosters, Orijen Regional Red works for all of them. I'm happy with it.
Well, that explains the eighty-gajillion hits I'm getting on that article ;)
ReplyDeleteOut of curiosity, how soon did you observe the greater water intake in your dogs after starting the food? And did you do the organ screen due to the excessive thirst? I get at least one or two hits every day on that article from people searching for 'orijen drinking water' and 'orijen liver problems' or variations thereof. It makes me wonder how often that actually happens with these foods.
@ Cynthia, I was thinking about Akira when I was reading the OP.
ReplyDelete@Jen, I totally agree "that dog food is less about what you feed and mroe about how the individual dog tolerates it."
@Jess- I'm really glad you addressed this. I hear from so many pet people who remark their dogs are terribly gassy and very thirsty after switching to Orijen.
I have spoken with several very prominent breeders in Shibas who have had dogs develop elevations in liver function on the food. It has forced quite a change in what we now recommended for our dogs.
I noticed the increased thirst right away, and so started soaking it in water to help, not realizing what was really going on. Their urine turned very dark, and one dog in particular was acting very ill and not eating.
The changes were very gradual, so I think it was following 12ish months that I did labs. Although I can't proove that it wasn't infection or stress which caused the abnormal lab values, it was enough to cause me to switch.
My concern is that people start otherwise healthy puppies and dogs on it because of popular dogma on pet forums that "Shibas should eat grain free" and protein is king without doing research. I think it's being most recommended for suspected allergy dogs in lieu of medical testing, but I know so many people switch to it hoping that will "prevent" allergy issues from developing.
I used to really thump that bible, but I now realize that isn't necessarily best for a healthy dog who could do equally well on something less restrictive, especially with puppies.
It would be nice if Orijen would mention if they are finding this is a verified issue with their customers. I wonder if this isn't what prompted the recent changes in their formulas?
Jen, frankly, I thought your critical thinking skills were a little bit better than that. Who DOES NOT give their dog water? Really? Do you think three or four treats a day are going to make a difference if the main diet is really out of whack? Many people do not feed their dog anything but kibble, ESPECIALLY if the dog has a weight problem, and grain free foods are frequently recommended for weight loss. In fact, I recommend low carb foods myself for weight loss.
ReplyDeleteFrankly, for the cost of this kibble, people should expect a safe product. If there are caveats (should be fed with other foods, fed with extra water, some dogs may have issues with it in regards to kidney and liver function) IT SHOULD BE ON THE BAG.
I have seen changes in my dogs with very subtle diet tweaks. Yes, that makes me question the wisdom of having a iron content that is FIVE TIMES the recommended amount in a product meant for daily feeding (no warning on the bag.) Chronic high iron intake can actually scar the liver and cause permanent damage. Call me extreme, if it makes you feel better. I don't mind.
Lindsay, I find it very interesting that you saw the thirst right away. That's actually a little scary, because the moisture content in this food is 10%, which is in line with other kibbles. There really isn't a reason, in regards to hydration, why a dog would need more water on this food. Water consumption in that case would be a disease pathology, and I find it a little scary because it is an organ function problem, not just something like a little soft poop due to increased fat or fiber that will resolve once the dog gets used to the new diet.
I have talked to other people who have had increased liver values in their dogs on very high protein foods, that resolved when the food was changed. It would be really interesting to know how common that is. It would also be really interesting to cross-reference it in purebred according to pedigree to see if there's a familial component.
Food allergies in dogs is a really interesting topic and there is a load of misinformation out there. IME, it's not really what you feed, but how you feed it (from weaning onwards) AND your dog's general physiology. There is a such a strong genetic component to it as well, that that can't be ignored. I've talked to many people with allergy dogs that are completely opposite to mine.
Thanks for the link and I'm glad you found it useful.
nutrient information on dog food bags - do they take into account daily water consumption?
ReplyDeletethat's what I meant. we're breaking down the nutrient content in dry matter form based on what is printed on the bag and how it may or may not affect the health of the dog. Not taking into consideration anything else the dog consumes or intakes.
so to say that you could be hurting your dog by feeding this because of the toll it can possibly maybe take on the liver and kidney based on the dry matter value is.. well.. extreme. in my very humble i-don't-have-any degrees-to-back-me-up-i'm-just-saying-because-i-feed-this-to-my-dogs-so-i'm-a-little-defensive-but-more-than-that-i-see-that-it-works-for-them-way.
and this is why, like you, I just can't handle getting into the food wars, with people or dog foods. since i'm a nutrition major in my post grad studies, i have to talk human nutrition all...the...time.
So.. did a bit of reading this morning and found that almost all the reviews on Orijen's formula upgrade are bad reviews here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-news/orijen-dog-food-new-recipes/
typically the comments on the reviews for orijen were good until the 80/20 change.
I'm still going to feed it as I am until I see problems, but we haven't gotten a bag of the 80/20/0 formula change yet.
This food has ten percent moisture. It should not cause a dog to drink more water to keep itself hydrated than any other ten percent moisture food. If it is necessary for the dog to consume more water than 'normal', which will vary by dog and environment, then it should say so on the bag. Iron and calcium and phosphorus are minerals. Water consumption is not going to affect mineral absorption. It may affect excretion of excess (and certainly that could be a reason for increased water consumption on this food), which comes back to directions on the bag.
ReplyDeleteAs a nutrition major, would you recommend that a person eat a food that contains five times the recommended amount of iron, every day? Do you think it would ethical for Kelloggs to market a breakfast cereal to children, and you know how children are about food preferences, that has five times the amount of a nutrient they need per day, and NOT put a notice on the box that says they should only be eating it in very small amounts or only a few times a week? I don't think that's ethical for children, and I don't think it's ethical for dogs. The thing is, most people who feed a food that their dog doesn't do well on, will just change it. They don't think about WHY their dog may be doing poorly. This lets manufacturers off the hook.
As a nutritionist, you may be interested in looking up a case study of a puppy with metabolic bone disease that was fed Sojourner Farms premix. See if you think the manufacturer's response in that case was ethical.
FWIW: We have experienced the same type of symptoms for our dogs over time with several high end protein brands of Kibble. So I would not point to just Orijens but kibble over 25% protein with a long ingredient list. (I think Orijens has one of the highest protein compounds on the market so it may be that symptoms appear quicker depending on the dog). As our Shibas have matured into Sr. dogs the higher protein content plus all the extras in the mixture have been quite hard on the kidneys. We have the cbc and urinalysis to prove it and the follow up after food change that shows a distinct change, so we believe there is a probable correlation. All of the dogs have done far better on raw with rice and veggies with a trade out of kibble (lower protein/short ingredient list) for at least one feeding per day or every other day. We are doing quite well with Addiction brand at this point. I really feel that high protein high supplement foods are akin power drinks/shakes in humans, unless one is bodybuilding or embarking in very high endurance sports there isn't really a need for it in the everyday. There is something to be said for being practical while seeking a whole food product to gain the greatest benefit in its simplest form. This brings me to another thought, in many kibble brands there is a 50 to 100 item ingredient list and I question if some of those are actually essential, particularly after processing. Some items listed sound really tasty but in all reality probably less is more.
ReplyDeleteI switched my Aussies to Orijen a couple of months ago as a transitional step to raw. I took one of them in for a blood test today and her BUN and creatinine levels were high (less than a year ago they were almost half of today's numbers). Both have been incredibly gassy since starting this food and are drinking a lot more water. I'm transitioning them off of it now.
ReplyDeleteGood plan Beth. I hope tour dog starts feeling better soon. I would retest labs in another 30 days. There has to be some correlation with the higher protein levels. I know people want to dismiss it by saying the dog was sick to begin with, but I second what Jess says, why aren't these special directions and cautions on the bag? To echo what Fuzzy is saying, I wouldn't feed a sled dog racing formula to my lazy senior dog, so people need to step back and evaluate why they believe any higher protein premium unique food should be rotated into their house pets diets when most pets simply don't need that level of nutrition. If I was forced to feed this food, or something similar to it, I would soak it in water and add cooked potato or rice, and reduce the overall kibble portion.
ReplyDelete